SPEAKER_00 0:03

Welcome to the Simply Christian Podcast. No creeds, no confusion, just Christ. Hey guys, we got some bonus content for you today. We're just talking about some things that in the church many people have issues with. One of those things is miracles.

SPEAKER_02 0:25

And let's go ahead and point out right now one of the things is that we are bouncing ideas back and forth off each other. Everything we say is not necessarily an endorsement of a position or anything of that nature. We're trying to grow, we're trying to improve our own understanding of things too.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Right. We're just letting you guys into a part of our discussions that we normally have, just the three of us.

SPEAKER_03 0:49

Yeah. And and and I want to start off, I guess, by saying I think it's important we answer this question right off the bat. Do we believe that miracles exist today?

SPEAKER_02 0:59

No.

SPEAKER_03 1:00

No. I'm gonna stand, I'm I'm not standing, I'm sitting, but I'm gonna say I'm gonna stand on the fact that no, miracles do not exist today. And so we're talking about miracles because a lot of times we'll we'll people want to say, well, you know, God did this or God did that, and God did this miracle in my life, you know, or or whatever it might be, and they might talk about this thing that happened. And and and we need to understand something. It's something we were just actually talking about. God, if if it's something that happens that God has done, it's not a miracle. That's exactly what I think. Casey just Casey said it, and I and and he hit the nail on the head.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

I've never heard a preacher say that. It's out and that's I as far as I know, I'm the only one that I have ever heard say that.

SPEAKER_03 1:48

Well, and and here's the thing: what is a miracle? Like if you define what a miracle is, what would you say?

SPEAKER_00 1:55

Well, and I think that's important too that we define that term because we know we know you think that. But no, as soon as we we made the statement that we don't believe that miracles occur today, there are people already like, I believe in miracles, you crazy folks.

SPEAKER_03 2:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:11

All right, so let's define what a miracle is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:14

And then let's take a moment to also talk about how people typically use the term absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

We need to do this.

SPEAKER_02 2:21

When people say, Oh, well, that's a miracle, they don't they don't mean what we are implying a lot of time. Right.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Exactly. And so does that mean that things that that happen outside of the laws of nature, things that we cannot explain? Yeah, those things do happen. And if you want to call that a miracle, then okay. I'm I'm I'm okay with that, I guess. But biblically But no, but bib but biblically speaking, that is not a miracle.

SPEAKER_03 2:49

Right. And and so um let's define a miracle. All right. So a m a miracle or something miraculous is something that happens outside of nature. Absolutely. There there is no possible way that the laws of nature could handle the situation.

unknown 3:08

Right.

SPEAKER_03 3:09

Okay. And and we'll give you a I'll give you for instance, okay? Um, when when Jesus raised someone from the dead.

SPEAKER_00 3:18

Yeah, that's that's not naturally going to happen. That's not natural.

SPEAKER_03 3:22

Um how long had Lazarus been dead? Three days. Three three, three days, right? Behold, Lord, he stinketh. Yeah. This cat had been dead, right? He had he was dead dead.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

I I work in the stink, he stink, he stunk.

SPEAKER_03 3:35

Yeah, he was all the way, all the way dead. I I um I work in the medical field. I'm a respiratory therapist, and and we'll have people that are clinically dead. Um in fact, I'll I'll give you for instance, okay? This is actually a really good one. I'm glad we're doing this. So I and I'm not gonna go into any details because of HIPAA, you you can't do those things. But I was working in in the emergency room, this has been years ago. Um, and I was working in a facility that I don't work, well, I worked there a couple of days a week now. And we had a uh an emergency come in and a patient was was coding. And um not cody, yeah, coding coding. Um, if you don't know what that means, uh, you know, their heart had stopped, and and we were down there trying to resuscitate them, you know, that kind of thing. We were doing all the stuff. And um, we worked on that patient for a good long while and and we never could get a heartbeat back. We just couldn't get them back. And so the doctor calls, you know, time of death, like like, you know, it's kind of like on the TV shows, you know, well, they'll call time of death, and and we go on about our business because that's what we have to do. And um I get back to the department and I'm I'm doing I'm sitting down at the computer and I'm doing some charting and the phone rings, and they said, Hey, we need you to come back down here to this room. We go back down there, and the doctor's sitting at the bedside, squeezing the amboo bag, breathing for this patient. Because they're they're not dead. Their heart's beating. And they and I mean like they they were dead, you know. They had caught it. Was that patient really dead? No, that patient was clinically dead, right? For some reason, the monitor didn't pick up electrical activity, for some reason maybe the heart was barely doing anything that you couldn't really feel anything, and then all of a sudden the sort the heart decided, hey, here I go. Some people might would say that was a miracle, right? That doesn't defy the laws of nature. No, that's not a miracle, that was just a coincidence, right? And and it's unexplainable. Yeah, I mean, I I I I couldn't and the doctor because I looked at the doctor and I'm like, what in the world? And he's like, I don't know, man.

SPEAKER_02 5:39

You know, and here's another thing. I mean, even if the heart had stopped and you managed to get that heart beating again, right? That is still a natural system put in place. I mean, we have ways of jump starting a heart. Right, yeah. Uh so I mean, yes, technically he would be dead. The heart stops, you're dead.

SPEAKER_03 5:57

Right.

SPEAKER_02 5:57

But we can still still naturally do that.

SPEAKER_03 6:00

The miraculous would have been if this patient would have died and we'd have put him on the cart and took him to the morgue. Because sometimes that's you know, we it the hospital I was at, we have a morgue. And so sometimes if the funeral home's not coming to get them, we'll take them to the morgue. And I know this all sounds morbid, but it I'm I'm making my point. If we'd have took him to the morgue and and two days later he's beaten on the door.

SPEAKER_00 6:25

Let me out of here.

SPEAKER_03 6:26

Let me up out of here. Like, what are y'all doing? That would have been miraculous.

SPEAKER_02 6:30

Is this when we discuss zombies? Yeah, yeah. Sorry, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

Oh, y'all pray for David.

SPEAKER_02 6:40

But when we talk about miracles, and and what you the point you've made is is spot on, right? Um the purpose typically, I won't say it's a hundred percent of the time. Uh I think if we look through the Bible, we we might be able to find a couple of examples where you know miracles are for a different purpose. But typically, a miracle only serves the purpose of confirming the word of God. That's right. It serves the purpose of the thing. Confirming the speaker, confirming the word of God. That's right. And you know, ensuring that those around know this is from God. Yeah. God puts it in the law, the law of Moses, he puts it in there. You test the prophets.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 7:18

And miracles were one of those things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:19

I well, and I had a guy, that was the argument I made. I had a guy here a while back that was visiting with the congregation where I'm at. And um, this was when dad was out with his double bypass. And um, so I was I was the dude running around, you know. I was filling the pulpit and teaching class, and I was the preacher. Something I I got some experience in. I hadn't got to do that. I've always kind of been the associate, but but um there was a guy that was visiting there with us, and and uh he stayed with us for a good while. He was coming every every Sunday, and and you would get like we would get somewhere with him and and we would get like okay, he understands this, and then he would come back and it would be this whole other thing. But I I thought, man, we was really making some headway with the guy. I got through a class that morning and he came up to me and he said, I want you to think about doing something. I said, Okay. I said, Yeah, what you got? He said, I want you to think about starting a demon ministry. I said, uh a what now?

SPEAKER_02 8:18

I want involved.

SPEAKER_03 8:19

He said, a demon ministry. He said, This this area could really use with a demon ministry a lot of spirits that need to be, you know, gotten rid of around here. And I and and the first thing I thought was, okay, well, first of all, demon ministry would mean that I'm going out and ministering to demons.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

Yeah, that's that's what I mean.

SPEAKER_03 8:39

So that don't even make sense. I don't know where that come from, but okay. And and I said, Well, here's the problem with that. I said, though they don't exist nowadays. And he was like, You don't you don't believe demons exist? And so I took him through this whole aspect of what you were talking about, the the purpose of it back then.

SPEAKER_04 8:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 8:58

And I think a lot of times people people that get confused about this topic, this issue, is because they don't really understand the purpose of what what demon possession was for back then, why it happened, why it was allowed to happen. I'm putting the kid.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

All right, come on. Because I don't agree. Okay. Okay. Uh-huh. I do agree that demon possession does not happen or occur. Which I believe is what you're out. That's what I'm trying to do. That's the point that he's making. But I I think we need to y'all know me, define our terms, you know, to clarify. But I think that it's important to point out that no, demon possession does not occur today the way that it did then. And I think once we spend a little bit more time on the miraculous and answer, um, David hit the nail on the head a while ago when he talked about the purpose of miracles. There are actually four purposes of miracles, biblical miracles, and we'll talk about those in a moment. But I think it's also important to talk about the the cessation or the cessation of miracles. When did it stop? Why did it stop? And with that ceasing of miracles, I believe that demon possession also ceased. However, I do believe that we can give ourselves over to Satan.

SPEAKER_03 10:25

Oh, a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

Yeah. And and and I know that's not what you meant. You didn't even have to go around Laura's house to make that point. But no, but what I'm saying is is uh a demon's not going to possess me without my allowance. Yeah. In in in entering in.

SPEAKER_03 10:44

It kind of well, and you can kind of look at um without the invitations. You can kind of look at uh Judas. Absolutely in the Bible. You know, entered him. You know, the account where it says that Satan entered his heart. Did Satan literally possess Judas? No, I I don't believe he did. I believe Judas allowed himself to go to that place. He said he allowed himself in that moment to say, okay, I am no longer serving God. And so who if you're not serving God, who are you serving?

SPEAKER_02 11:12

Satan.

SPEAKER_03 11:13

You're serving Satan, right? And so the same way God, I don't know what that was, but anyway.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

That was this um this this deal over here. Sorry, y'all.

SPEAKER_03 11:22

This thing. There's a thing over making noise. Um but but the same way that we allow God to to rule in our hearts, if we serve the world or if we serve our own lusts, if we serve our own um temptations, we're allowing Satan to rule in our hearts. And that very much still happens today.

SPEAKER_02 11:41

Absolutely. And I know we're not getting all into this, but to Casey's point and to you know, just to throw it all out there, uh none of us are against the idea or do not believe that there is a spiritual warfare going on. That God is that we know that there is, we know that angels are fighting, we know that they're Satan and his forces are you know constantly trying to steal us.

SPEAKER_03 12:04

Yeah. Uh yeah. If you if you if you call yourself a gospel preacher and you don't believe that right.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

And that's the reason why I wanted to point this out because I know as soon as you made that statement, somebody was going to take that. Is you don't believe in demons.

SPEAKER_03 12:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

We we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers and heavenly places.

SPEAKER_02 12:26

And that is spiritual beings, too.

SPEAKER_00 12:27

And that is indeed spiritual beings. And and those demons do they don't we we use the term attack, they don't physically attack us. However, they do attack us spiritually by putting temptation in our path. That's right. Anything that they can do to draw us away from God.

SPEAKER_03 12:51

You know, you get into that stuff though, and it it it's there's a lot of vagueness.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Absolutely. And so and ambiguity.

SPEAKER_03 12:58

And I believe it's intentional. I I don't think we need to know. I don't think it's important that we know how it works. Right. We just know that it does. Well, and that's kind of like the whole Holy Spirit thing. Exactly. We don't have to understand how he operates to the world.

SPEAKER_02 13:12

We're given a a very brief glimpse of that in with Elijah. Mm-hmm. Right. Elijah, who's the one who had the the the veil pulled from his eyes and he was able to see the force. Okay. I get Elijah and Elijah mixed up. Yeah, I do too. Oh man, yeah, why God allowed two prophets back to back to be named that close. I know, I know. But uh you know, you have Elijah and he thinks he's alone, and God says, Okay, well, here, look, and he pulls the veil back, and you have an entire mountain full of fiery chariots. Yeah. War we know, yeah, we we know that there is that there's a a war going on. Yeah. Uh that war is still taking place. Yeah, 100%. But I mean, we don't see that. That's working in the background. That's God does not intend for us to see that.

SPEAKER_03 13:57

Well, and you you you know, when Peter talks about Satan, you know, Peter says Satan is a roaring lion walking around seeking whom he may devour. He is looking for every opportunity.

SPEAKER_02 14:10

Which is why we need to look for opportunities.

SPEAKER_03 14:13

Yeah, exactly. But but he and and but the thing is, like you said, we have a very brief, small glimpse at how that works. But here's the really cool thing is the glimpse that we have is enough because we can know what to look for and we can know how to fight it. We don't have to understand the whole picture of it, but we can know what to look for and we can know how to fight it. Anybody got anything? We we're cutting it right there.

SPEAKER_02 14:45

No, no, no, no. Let's get to miracles. We you know, we've confirmed that we do not believe that miracles uh happen today. I think we've defined what a miracle is. We defined what a miracle is. Well, I think let's just take a moment when someone says, Oh, that's a miracle, like when someone has a baby, oh, it's uh you know a precious miracle that I they do not b believe that God somehow made that baby just pop out.

SPEAKER_03 15:08

Right.

SPEAKER_02 15:09

You know, poof, there's a baby.

SPEAKER_03 15:10

They know, they understand how nature works, the laws of nature that God put in place, you know.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

They're using they're using that term to describe something that is not what a miracle actually is. Yeah. Now language evolves. We all know that, we all understand that. There could be an argument made that, oh, well, that's just a new definition, a new term for a miracle. I think it's a very poor one because it confuses the subject. Right, yeah. But I understand when people say it's a miracle of God, they're saying it's a gift of God. That's what they're really saying. And I wholeheartedly birth children, they're blessings and gifts of God every time. Yeah. Uh, even my three monsters.

SPEAKER_03 15:50

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

Yeah. I want to go back to your example of Elijah. That was not Elijah, that was Elisha. See, I told you I was seeing look, hey, I I was I was like, I thought, well, maybe y'all are right and I'm wrong. And because I get them mixed up too. Yeah, but you can't go by me. And so I but no, but I mean, hey, when we get into the Old Testament and I get to studying a lot of names and stuff, I get people mixed up. It's really easy.

SPEAKER_02 16:21

I tell the congregation at Falcon all the time, why couldn't God let these people name them like Bob and Jim? Those are good sound names.

SPEAKER_03 16:29

Why do you have to So we're we're studying the book in the book of Acts in the adult class that I'm teaching, and I butcher those names all the time. And and Freddie, my daddy, I'll be reading them and then he'll he'll say the the way that they're supposed to be pronounced. I'll say, I don't I don't think I'm saying that right, and then he'll say the way it's supposed to be pronounced. And I guess that's the way it's supposed to be pronounced. For all I know, he's saying it wrong too. Hey, them names is ridiculous.

SPEAKER_02 16:55

Hey, hey, you know, biblical Greek is a dead language now? Yeah. Okay. He doesn't know he doesn't know how they pronounce those names. Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 17:02

But no, anyway, that's 2 Kings chapter 6, by the way. You want to go home and read that? And so I was I was thinking, I was like, we're gonna sound really dumb. Well, I think it's a wrong thing. You grab your phone and I'm like, Casey's over here making dry back in it. I'm like, because I started doubting myself because I started to be like, no, that's Elijah. And then I was like, maybe I'm wrong. Yeah, that probably is, because when Michael was like, yeah, that's Elijah, I was like, okay, then yeah, I'm wrong.

SPEAKER_03 17:31

Well, because we do we mix those up. Well, what was funny easy? What was funny was somebody was listening to this episode and they were like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you said Elijah, and they're like, idiots.

SPEAKER_02 17:42

I will just say that this is this is further proof that there is not a miraculous indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

If I had the Holy Spirit miraculously directing me. Well, hey, that's good. There is a valid point. It's a very valid point. Yeah. So But does that mean you don't have the Holy Spirit, David? Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_02 18:08

Not miraculously. That's right. He ain't directing and guiding like that.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

Oh, no. He does not control my mouth. No, uh we're we're kind of we're kind of kicking around that because there has been some questions uh about episode 10 of season one. And uh because we did talk about the Holy Spirit, the gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts chapter two. Yeah. And uh and so uh uh I I had somebody that uh was like, well, I I don't I don't know, but y'all got real close to sounding like word only guy. And uh so I in one aspect I do believe in word only, yeah, but in the other aspect I do believe in the literal indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And I wanted to find that term literal because if it is spiritual, on this side of eternity, it is not literal.

SPEAKER_02 19:07

Well, I mean it it's as in physically physical.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

It's not physical. And so I think a lot of times when we we talk about something being literal, it's automatically assumed that we mean physical. And so, do I have Christ in my heart? Yes, I better, yeah. Do I have the spirit in my heart? I had better.

SPEAKER_03 19:30

I I asked that question. I asked that question um at Jonesboro here a while back. Because, you know, Acts deals a lot with the Holy Spirit, and so you know, there's some times in there when we've been studying in Acts that we had to really get into it, you know, into the nitty-gritty of it. And and I asked that question, I said, Does the Holy Spirit, does he dwell in us? Absolutely. And there wasn't a single person in that congregation that said no. Every one of them said yes. It matters how though.

SPEAKER_02 19:56

It does.

SPEAKER_03 19:57

You know, uh and and I say it matters how. We need to have a general understanding of how. If we're going to talk about it and we're going to teach it and we're going to live it, we need to have a general understanding of how. And it's the same thing with the with the miraculous stuff, you know, the miracles. That's kind of why we're talking about it.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

How does he how does he live in our hearts?

SPEAKER_02 20:20

Is there a physical presence of the Lord inside my heart somehow? No. No. No. And that's the same with the Spirit. There's not a physical presence.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

Does Christ guide me?

SPEAKER_03 20:32

Yes. Yeah. Well, John 15. Absolutely. John 15, 1 through 8, when he talks about the vine and the branches. Absolutely. He says that you and I'm I'm probably fixing to butcher it, but he says, Hey, we butchered, we butchered 2 Kings chapter 1. Basically, what he says, basically what he says, correct me if I get it wrong. I abide in you, you abide in me. How? He tells how. When you abide in my words. When you obey my words, when you uh when you live by my teachings, that's it. I abide in you, and you abide in me. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

That's how it works. And and I think a lot of times people get this idea that that um we're we're somehow saying that the Holy Spirit of God, God, period, only operates through the word of God. Yeah, no, I have an issue with that statement.

SPEAKER_03 21:30

I'm not saying that. I'm not gonna say that because I'm pigeonholding God to something that I I have no I don't even understand. Yeah, that I don't even complete I don't even remotely understand. It's that's right. It's like and I hope I uh if you had more go, I'll shut up.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Oh no, no, you're fine.

SPEAKER_03 21:45

Just keep going because I'll I'll add to it. It's like it's you know, we talk about God's providence.

SPEAKER_04 21:50

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 21:50

You know, I don't know if that's where you were going, but but we talk about the providential care of God and we we fail to understand how it works because we're we're never meant to understand. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

And we have so many brethren that want to divide over something like this because they don't understand what other brethren are trying to say.

SPEAKER_03 22:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:12

It is so difficult to put into words because it is of a spiritual nature, not of a physical nature.

SPEAKER_03 22:19

Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

And my brethren want to tear each other apart.

SPEAKER_03 22:23

Well, if you don't believe in the providential care of God, then stop reading your Bible. That's exactly that book that you're looking at. You don't believe that you have the God's providential care. That's absolutely true. How do you think that book was preserved for 2,000, 4,000, whatever however many thousands of years that text has been preserved where we can look at it and we can have, as James said, this perfect law of liberty. God providentially made that happen. Amen. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 22:49

My wife, we we share a Kindle account, and uh naturally I have a lot of church books, and a recommendation for translations popped up, and she started reading it, and she was talking about the fact, you know, you you you start looking at all these translations and all the work and how they're produced, and she was it sure does. There had to be God working through some of this stuff. Yeah, oh that's right.

SPEAKER_03 23:11

And I'm like, yep, that's it. I was I was watching um Aaron Gallagher with GBN and he was uh debating a couple of Eastern Orthodox guys. And the Eastern Orthodox guys were talking about you can't claim to be the church because you don't have the proof. We have had the text for 2,000 years or whatever, and you don't have the proof, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And Aaron's biggest thing was he said, You're in the same boat that I'm in. Because nobody has it as far as have having the canical or canonical, whatever term you want to use. They're lost. It's been lost. And it and and you have to also say that the gospel was preserved, the infallible gospel was preserved by fallible men. The infallible word of God was preserved by fallible men. And so when you look at it like that, and I and and infallible, infallible is big words for me, right? So so infallible, in case you didn't know, is is perfect, right? Infallible is flawed. God is infallible. We are we are fallible, we are flawed. How do flawed men preserve the the infallible text of God? God's providence. That's the only way.

SPEAKER_00 24:24

That's the only way.

SPEAKER_03 24:25

That's the only way. Can I explain it to you? No.

SPEAKER_02 24:28

And I think it's really important that we understand that every example of God's providence we have in the Bible is always looking back in an afterthought. Yeah. Go to Esther chapter four. You look at verse 14. At the very end of that, Mordecai says, Yet who knows whether you have come to the kingdom for such a time as this? He says this might be the providence of God. But then he he starts off, but who knows?

SPEAKER_01 24:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:55

We have the benefit of having the completed work of Esther, and we can say, Oh, yeah, absolutely, that's the providence of God. Right. Look what happened.

SPEAKER_00 25:02

Yeah, we have a God's eye of you. Yeah, but they didn't. They didn't. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 25:05

And that's one of those things. You know, we were talking earlier about some of this, and I said, look, there's points in my life I look back and go, I'm fairly certain God's providence stopped me right here. But prove it. But I can't prove it's nothing. You can't prove it.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

You can't prove anything. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:19

Not like that. And I think that's why and y'all might not agree with me. I I think that that's why we have to be careful talking about it. Yes. Because because here's the thing. You're trying to talk and you're trying to explain something that you can't explain. Because you don't understand. That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_00 25:41

Now I I don't I don't I w I do want to say this. I d I don't want to say that you don't understand as in you don't have an understanding. It's just that your understanding is not complete. It's not complete. Yeah. And it never will be complete.

SPEAKER_03 25:57

And I guess that's probably what I mean by that. That's right. It's kinda like it's kind of like okay.

SPEAKER_02 26:02

And how God works is definitely one of those secret things.

SPEAKER_03 26:04

I I'm gonna give a a very big, you know, not true scenario. I'm gonna I'm gonna come up with something. Okay. Uh let's say that I had this choice that I needed to make for my family. And it was a big one. Okay. I mean it it affected their lives and my life for for the rest of our lives. And for some reason I didn't go that direction. For some reason I decided to go this direction. And then six months down the road, eight months down the road, a year down the road, it's like, you know what? That was the best choice that I could have possibly made. And in my mind, I say, I don't what in the world made me think that? What made me choose that? Was that God's providence? Possibly. I maybe do I know like that. I feel like it was that's the case.

SPEAKER_02 26:58

But what if five years later you're like, why didn't I do that? Exactly. Suddenly God's providence make you do the wrong thing.

SPEAKER_03 27:04

So so what we need to do as Christians, and I I wholeheartedly believe this, and I I I believe it, is we have to deal in realities. And we have to live in realities, and we have to deal with and live in what we know and can understand. And I'm sorry, where's the only place we can know and understand it?

SPEAKER_02 27:27

The word is God's word.

SPEAKER_03 27:29

Yep, yeah. And and anything else, it's just speculation. Yeah, it's speculation.

SPEAKER_02 27:34

And that gets that gets back to it, you know, since we're we're going back there. Yeah. God's providence, we know it happens. We know God is working. Yeah, we know the Father works, we know the Son is working, He is making intercession on our behalf. We know it. Yep, that's absolutely our advocate. He is actively working. That's right. I am not going to sit here and say that two figures of the Godhead are working, and the Holy Spirit is up there twiddling his thumb as he gave us the words. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I am not gonna do that.

SPEAKER_00 28:04

That's right. Yeah. And and and it to me, it's absolutely ludicrous to to imply that. Yeah. And so I I just I think it's so important that we understand it doesn't, to a degree, doesn't matter what exactly we do believe on the operation of the Holy Spirit, so long as one, not that i if a person says it's either word only or indwelling only, they've they already don't even understand the argument.

SPEAKER_03 28:38

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

As long as I don't believe in a miraculous indwelling of the Holy Spirit, that the Holy Spirit is whispering things to me through a still small voice, or that he is telling me something outside and apart from the Word of God. That's right. As long as I don't believe that, as long as I don't believe that the Holy Spirit only works through the Word and no other way. I think a lot of people make that claim and they don't understand what they're claiming. Yeah. Because to make that claim means God's providence is not there, and we've already talked about that. As long as those two things are not held to, as long as people don't hold it in that that manner, I I have no issues.

SPEAKER_03 29:30

Well, and you you when you look at at biblical evidence of how God works, works and worked, you know, has worked in the ta in the past, all three parts of the Godhead have been involved in every major event. Every major event. Uh you know, uh, you read John 1, you read about how Jesus was involved in the creation.

SPEAKER_02 29:54

He is quite literally the creator. Yeah, he is the creator. You don't get that from Genesis 1. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

Uh-uh. No, you get God. Yeah. Well, I I submit to you that all three parts of the Holy Trinity that God had, all three parts have been active the entire time and will continue to be till time is no more.

SPEAKER_02 30:14

Absolutely, 100%. And I will go one step further. I'll amen now. I do not know why, but the Father has been identified as a primary force that operates throughout the Old Testament. And I'm not entirely sure that every occasion we read God, it is talking about the Father.

SPEAKER_00 30:36

I agree.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

Yeah. There's several occasions like, you know, Jesus says he's the one that gave Moses the law. You but we you you talk to people like, oh yeah, God, the Father. The Father gave the law. No, Jesus did. Yeah. Who's to say that some of the occasions we think it's the Father, we think it's the Son, it wasn't actually the Spirit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:55

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 30:55

Yeah. I mean that goes back there again to things we don't know.

SPEAKER_00 30:59

We can't we cannot fully grasp three in one. Yeah. We can't. We just can't because we're our finite minds are so limited. Yeah. And and some of us are like me, are a little more limited than others. But you know, but hey, my my point is we're never going to be able to fully understand it. That's right. And we're never going to be able to fully explain it this side of eternity.

SPEAKER_03 31:30

There you go. Yeah, that's right. And and and I know that we kind of started this episode out talking about talking about miracles, but all of this, all of these things apply to it. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

What we're really when we when we talk about miracles, what we're really talking about is the work of God, and we need to discuss all aspects of that. So, you know, if we want to go back to miracles, God does not perform miracles. That's right. I know I know that Jesus did. Right. And, you know, Casey made this point earlier when we were just talking, Jesus was, yes, God, but he's also man. And the man, Jesus, performed miracles. Right.

SPEAKER_01 32:18

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 32:19

God does not perform miracles because a miracle is outside of nature, and God himself is outside of nature. When he performs, he is simply acting.

SPEAKER_00 32:28

Right. And for God to perform a miracle, it would have to be something that he performs outside of his nature. Yeah. And that is And He does not do that.

SPEAKER_02 32:37

Yeah, that what is outside of God telling that. Nothing. Uh, you know, I mentioned, you know, when we were talking, I mentioned that creation is not a miracle. Creation is an act of God. That's right. That's right. Now, if I were to create something, that's a miracle. That's a miracle. Absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:53

And I think it's important that people understand that, and and they understand that when we say we don't believe in miracles, they understand we do not believe in a biblical miracle being performed today. That is uh is something outside of the laws of nature to confirm the word of God. Right? Mark 1620. That's right. They went forth, they preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, confirming with signs. Yeah. And so the the purpose of the signs and the miracles was to confirm that which was preached.

SPEAKER_03 33:28

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 33:29

And so that confirmation was not the message itself. Yeah. And and it was proof of the message.

SPEAKER_03 33:35

And I know David said that, you know, most all miracles were to confirm. I I don't I can't think of a a single one that wasn't to confirm in some form or fashion. I'm I'm one to you know uh well just and that's just me thinking off the top of my head.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

We have the other three reasons. Um one is to uh to validate or to reveal the divine. Yeah, there, there to prove that Jesus was indeed who he said he was. Well, and in the Old Testament to prove that God was the true God. Right.

SPEAKER_03 34:09

You know, right. You know, that and that was the thing I was fixing to say. You know, the you know, a lot of times we see them in the Old Testament, it wasn't necessarily to confirm the word per se, but it was to confirm that God was the one true God. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 34:21

Yes, and that's kind of where I was thinking of it. I was thinking of occasions, you know, where uh you know a prophet prayed that there wouldn't be rain. Yeah. Things of that nature.

SPEAKER_00 34:29

That was Elijah, not Elisha.

SPEAKER_02 34:33

I'm never gonna live this.

SPEAKER_00 34:34

One of them e-gas. Hey, I can't say anything because I'm sitting here going, yeah, that might have been. But uh y'all read the Bible, it'll do you good. John 20, 30 and 31. John thirty uh John did I say John thirty, twenty and twenty-one? You said John 20, I think. Yeah, it there's not 30 chapters in John.

SPEAKER_03 34:59

Not that not the Bible I got.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

Yeah, not not mine either. John 20, 30 and 31, and many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples. There were many miracles that Jesus did that were not written in this book, but these are written so that ye might believe. And so those were all done to confirm his message, to prove his deity, you know, and and and that is important. It proved who Jesus was.

SPEAKER_02 35:32

When we make comments like miracles were done for to to you know confirm the speaker, confirm the word, the point we're typically making is Peter didn't go turn, you know, bread into gold for selfish purposes. That's right. Absolutely. Miracles were never meant for a selfish purpose, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 35:51

And so, like even when Nicodemus came to Jesus, he said, Rabbi, I know that thou art from God, for no man can do what you're doing. That's right. That's John 3, 2. Yeah. And and he said, The miracles that you do, it can't be done except God be with him. Yeah right. And so that that purpose of miracle was to confirm the word, to verify deity. And then two, to confirm the messenger, that the person who is delivering that message is truly a messenger of God. When they say that. Which is still a form of confirming the word itself. Second Corinthians 12 and verse 12 says, Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you. The miracles that only the apostles could perform was was done among you. And so uh the just the miracles themselves would prove that that the apostles uh were truly an apostle. Yeah. Uh remember, because uh even Peter would write, well, and then Paul as well, try the spirits, right?

SPEAKER_03 36:57

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 36:59

And and and um, you know, I think it was First Thessalonians, oh man, I just lost it. Um man, I hate when I do that. I do that all the time. Um abstain from any appearance of evil. That verse. It's it's first Thessalonians blank. Abstain from appearance of evil. What Paul's talking about there is not stay away from anything that looks wrong. In that context, he's talking about the letter that was written and that there were false apostles. 1 Thessalonians 5 and 22. 52. Thank you. Um sorry, y'all. Again, read the Bible, it'll do you good. It's in there somewhere. We need to read it more.

SPEAKER_03 37:54

Yes. Yeah, yeah, he says, um, you know, in 21, he says, test all things, hold fast what is good, abstain from every form of evil.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

Every form of evil. And so what he's talking about in that context is there were those claiming to be apostles, claiming to be from God, that were writing their letters or writing them letters that were telling them things that were false. And so he says, test those things. Yeah. Prove that which is true. And so that's the reason why when Paul would write, he would say, I am an apostle of Jesus Christ, I'm a servant of God, this is me, this you know because of this, this, this, and this. Right. And so when he says abstain from from every appearance of evil, he says, try those things, and if it's not right, stay away from it.

SPEAKER_04 38:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:46

And so in that context, he's talking about those false letters. Stay away from them, stay away from false teachers. Right. And so does the principle apply, though, that if it looks wrong, stay away from it. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, 100%. That's common sense, right? But the the whole purpose of the signs, the miracles, the wonders were to verify the apostles. Also, um, it was to provide uh uh proof of uh a completion of um prophecy or fulfillment of prophecy, right? Yep. It was it was to fulfill what God had already promised through his prophets. Yeah. And and so if it if it appears to be outside of the laws of nature and it does not confirm the word of God, it does not prove deity, it does not verify an apostle of Jesus Christ, and it does not fulfill a prophecy that is clearly taught. Yep. It is not a biblical miracle. That's right. And when you study Acts chapter 2 and you read the words of Peter, he says, These are those things written in the prophets that were all fulfilled on the day of Pentecost.

SPEAKER_03 40:09

He says, This is that which was spoken by the prophet of Joel. Joel. Yeah. There you go.

SPEAKER_00 40:15

And he also, interestingly enough, not only quotes Joel, but he also quotes David.

SPEAKER_04 40:20

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:21

And um, and so it's important to understand miraculous gifts were partial and they were they were tied to revelation, not revelation the book. Yeah. Because there's a lot of people that are expecting the there are a lot of people that are expecting revelation to be fulfilled today. Right. And I I think if they will read the first three verses of that book and understand what shortly what will shortly come to pass means and at hand means, yeah, they will begin to understand that much of this stuff is talking about um you know things that happened in the first century. Yeah. Yep. And and so it's important also to realize that it served a purpose to bring about the true word of God. That's right. Truth can stand the test of time. Truth demands to be tested.

SPEAKER_03 41:22

And and and so it kind of, you know, when you lay all of that out, then you have to say, okay, well then what caused all that to stop if it doesn't happen now? Right?

SPEAKER_00 41:33

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 41:34

What caused all that to stop?

SPEAKER_00 41:35

And that's where I was going with it.

SPEAKER_03 41:37

Go for it.

SPEAKER_00 41:37

No, no, you keep going.

SPEAKER_03 41:38

No, I want you to go. I want you to go. Because I tend to do that. Go for it.

SPEAKER_00 41:42

Well, no, it's fine. But the Bible teaches us that those mac miraculous gifts were temporary and that they served a purpose. And that purpose was to bring about the word of God. Yep. First Corinthians chapter 13. Got it pulled. Right? Oh, you're already there. I'm already there. See it. We'll read it for us.

SPEAKER_03 42:00

Start right there at what verse eight? Yeah, verse eight says, Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail. Whether there are tongues, they will cease. Whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

SPEAKER_00 42:20

That perfect's talking about Jesus, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 42:22

Because Jesus was perfect. No, in fact, let me take you somewhere else here. Hang on, just one second.

SPEAKER_02 42:27

And just to throw this out there, when it says that prophecies will fail, it's not saying that a prophecy of God will not come to pass. That's right. It's saying that they will stop.

SPEAKER_00 42:35

That's right. Absolutely. And that's not it. I love that David pointed that out because I think so many times that that point is not made. Yeah. It's not saying that God's prophecies are going to start failing. That's right. They're not going to be complete. Yeah. It means they're going to cease. They're not, they're coming to an end. There's not going to be a need for it.

SPEAKER_02 42:57

The love of God never ceases. Never stops.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

Absolutely. Wine because notice that phrase, we know in part and we prophesy in part. Why? Because that which is perfect is not yet come. Consider when this was written. This was written after the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_03 43:17

That's exactly right. And so it's not talking about Jesus. And I love the fact that the Bible a lot of times will answer its own questions. Absolutely. And so when we say, well, what is that perfect? Well, James actually answers that for us. That's right. In James 1 25, he says, but he who looks into the isn't it funny how he uses the same word, the perfect law of liberty, and continues in it. It's not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work. This one is blessed. We'll be blessed in what he does. So we can take that and we can understand that that perfect is the perfect law of liberty, the Bible, the Word of God, the infallible word of God that teaches us everything that we need.

SPEAKER_00 43:57

That's right. And and something else I want to point out. Is not only was this for the perfect word of God, the perfect law of liberty, i it was vital because they did not have the written word at that time. That's right. They did not have to be able to do that. And and it's so important to understand that the apostles had the gifts of the miraculous to confirm the word that they were presenting, the word that they would later write, and would be added to the canonicity of Scripture.

SPEAKER_02 44:28

The Spirit of God came upon them, guided them, directed them, caused them to write these things down, and that has now been complete.

SPEAKER_00 44:40

Absolutely, in a measure. In a measure. In which we do not have today. That's right. That's it. Because they were fully inspired by the Spirit of God. And all miracles after Christ that were being performed were either done by an apostle or someone who had the apostles' hands laid upon them. That's right. If one was just simply a disciple and not an apostle, he could not transfer the power of the Holy Spirit to someone else. That's right. He could not transfer that that measure of power of the Holy Spirit. So the miracles were then tied to the apostles after Christ's ascension.

SPEAKER_02 45:20

So you asked when they ended. That's right. When the last person who had been touched and given the ability of the miraculous by the apostles closed his eyes that last time, miracles ended. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

I actually believe that it ceased when the last apostle died. And so that even if there was an uh another disciple that outlived John, he suddenly loses the ability. He lost his ability. And the reason I believe that is because at that time they had the written word. I mean, yeah, it's very they didn't have it, they didn't have it compiled like we do, thinking about it.

SPEAKER_03 45:59

I won't I won't argue it, but we don't have any evidence. Yeah. You know, we have that we have that. We actually probably have more evidence to back up what you're saying than anything else. Because the only eight. The only other thing that we we have, but it's not it's not it's not scriptural, it's not it's not inspired. Yeah. Is there's some early church writers that speak of some disciples that were able to do some things that were on the miraculous side. Even there's question as the question it's questionable as to the date, it's questionable as as to it being the truth. You know, and so you can't take these men there again because they were not inspired. Not inspired men and say, oh, they know, yeah, that's definite, you know. So so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:44

Yeah, uh, and so that that that power was tied to the apostles, Acts 8, 14 through 18. Remember Simon the sorcerer, he wanted that that ability, not the ability to perform miracles, the ability to pass it on. He wanted the ability to pass it on to someone else. He wanted the gift that's gonna be. And so if you think that Simon the Sorcerer wanted the ability of miracles from the apostles, read and study that again because he didn't want that. He wanted the ability to give it to someone else.

SPEAKER_03 47:14

Well, he was a magician, he already could do magic tricks. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 47:18

He was Chris Angel. He was David Blaine. Um But no, and so when the apostles died, the gifts could not continue because the gifts were obviously tied to the apostles. And so the miracles being passed beyond apostolic hands is something that the scripture does not show anywhere. And and there was no second generation passing them on. But if apostle so-and-so is teaching you anything about the Word of God, he is a false prophet. That's right. The apostles are those who had seen the resurrected Savior, and they were eyewitnesses. Yes. And so if someone's claiming to be an apostle, I'm sorry, but they are not eyewitnesses of the resurrected savior. And if they claim that they are, they are a liar and the truth is not in them because that would make God a respecter of persons, because evidently God would have revealed himself to them outside of his word, that's right, and not to you and I.

SPEAKER_03 48:48

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 48:49

And so uh I I think though sometimes there are people that use that term uh as a title, apostle so-and-so, and they mean by that term messenger.

SPEAKER_04 49:00

Yeah. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 49:01

And and I would I would caution them for using that term apostle. That's right. If that's all that they mean, because it it causes a lot of confusion.

SPEAKER_02 49:13

I mean, because if we want to be fair, we do understand that you can be an apostle, you can be sent out by others. Yeah, you can be able to within the Bible there are others who have been sent out.

SPEAKER_00 49:23

So I want to also address something that I think is vital to understand. And we were talking about that which is perfect. When that which is perfect is come, y'all, if it's perfect, there is nothing else that is needed. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 49:41

Which means we do not need a Pope to sit on his throne and tell us what God says.

SPEAKER_00 49:46

That that's right. And then also on top of that, and I'm not trying to pick on our Catholic friends, I'm not trying to pick on our Mormon friends, but Joseph Smith in his his revelation.

SPEAKER_04 49:57

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 49:58

If you are reading and studying the Book of Mormon, you do not need it. Peter says you do not need it. 2 Peter 1 and verse 3, Peter said, We have all things that pertain to life and godliness. Yep. If we already have everything that pertains to life and godliness, so that we might know how to live in this present age, we don't need the Book of Mormon. Well, I'm gonna tell you, and I'm we don't need we don't need a confession of faith. We don't need a manual. Nope. We need scri just the scripture, the word of God. And Jude 3, Jude tells us that we have already received that perfect word. That's right. Earnestly contend for the faith which was once, that term once means it only happened one time. That's right. It's not gonna happen again. That's right. It was once delivered unto the saints.

SPEAKER_02 50:54

Yep. And here's the deal. If we say that, you know, like our our friends within the Mormon church, if we say that we need this book by Joseph Smith, we're saying God failed and lied. Yeah. He failed to deliver the complete, necessary, absolutely word.

SPEAKER_03 51:17

Well, it's the same thing when people And he lied about it. It's the same thing when people try to say that that the the cross was plan B. Yeah. Or plan C or plan D or whatever. You know, they're they're well the the old law failed, and so and so you know, Jesus had to die.

SPEAKER_00 51:34

Well, and some of our brethren, you know, and I don't think they understand what they're saying when they say it. Well, the old law wasn't perfect. Uh it was perfect. It was absolutely perfect. Far. Well, if it was perfect, then why did Jesus come back? Or why did it be a good thing?

SPEAKER_02 51:54

It served its purpose bringing Christ to the old law brought us Christ. That was God's intention.

SPEAKER_03 52:02

The law was not imperfect. The people keeping it were imperfect.

SPEAKER_00 52:05

That's right. Well, you couldn't keep the law. You couldn't keep the law.

SPEAKER_03 52:09

Well, there's folks that can't keep this law. Okay. And he failed again.

SPEAKER_00 52:15

Yeah, he failed again. And that's and that's a lot of uh of what people say, but if you go to Luke chapter 5, you will see that Zacharias and Elizabeth, verse the first verse. Zacharias and Elizabeth kept the law blameless. You could not cast blame on them in any part of the law.

SPEAKER_02 52:34

Now that's because they weren't sinless.

SPEAKER_00 52:37

Absolutely. And so the issue with the old law was that it served its purpose, which was to bring us to Christ. The law itself could not save. There was not any atonement for sin. So if someone failed, if someone sinned, which we are not perfect, that is the human condition, we will indeed sin. Does that mean that we have to be bound to sin? No. Romans 5 talks about how we are bound to sin if we continue in our sin and we are servants to sin. But Romans chapter 6 teaches us how to become a new creation, perfect in the grace of God. Able to walk in a newness of life and no longer servants of sin. And so the word that was delivered once for all the saints, Jude 3, is all that we need for life and godliness, 2 Peter 1 and verse 3, and 2 Timothy 3, 16 and 17 help us to understand that all scripture, old and new, is given by the inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction and righteousness, that the man of God might be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto every good work. The scripture is what makes us complete. There is no need for any ongoing revelation, there's no need for any more prophecies to be fulfilled. God has brought us that which is perfect. That's right so that we might know how to live and that we can live for him, and we don't need miracles today so that we can be right with him. Yep. We don't need all of that anymore.

SPEAKER_02 54:32

That's exactly what that means because we have the complete word of God. We have no need, and the purpose of miracles is ended. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 54:41

One more point, can I make it right right quick? It's real short. It's 1 Corinthians 14 22. 1 Corinthians 14 22 teaches us that the signs, the miracles, the wonders were for unbelievers, not for the church.

SPEAKER_04 54:57

There you go.

SPEAKER_00 54:59

Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not. And so once the church was established and the word was confirmed, and that which was perfect, the perfect law of liberty had come, signs were no longer needed.

SPEAKER_02 55:19

So I want to ask a question then. Okay. Because miracles have ended, does that necessarily mean that any action outside of nature has stopped?

SPEAKER_00 55:39

I don't think so. It can't. I don't think so because the reason why I say that is because God exists outside of nature. And if he acts, God is still working, Christ is still working, the Holy Spirit is still working outside of the laws of nature. And if it's an act of God, we might see it as a miracle. But we might call it a miracle, but it's not actually a miracle. It's a work of God. So when someone says that person miraculously survived that car accident, well, n I understand what they're saying, but that's not a miracle. That's an act of God. I do believe it is an act of God.

SPEAKER_02 56:29

And I believe that it could very well be outside of nature that they survived.

SPEAKER_00 56:33

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 56:34

And I will say this I believe most of our brethren believe it too, whether they want to acknowledge it or not. Absolutely. Who here has prayed that God will send some rain when we needed it?

SPEAKER_00 56:48

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 56:49

Yeah. Are we do we do we truly believe God is capable? If the weather if if it's in a drought and the weather hadn't, do we truly believe that God can send rain? Are we praying for something we don't believe in?

SPEAKER_00 56:59

James said we better.

SPEAKER_02 57:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:01

He said Elijah prayed.

SPEAKER_02 57:04

Then let's go a step further. When we pray for someone who's sick, do we truly believe God can and will heal them?

SPEAKER_00 57:12

Oh no, that's gotta be done through the medical professionals, the medical field.

SPEAKER_02 57:17

What about James uh?

SPEAKER_00 57:19

Absolutely. Well, 515-16. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 57:26

And the Lord will raise him up.

SPEAKER_00 57:28

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 57:29

I'm not I'm not willing to limit God.

SPEAKER_00 57:31

Uh no, we don't need to. And I think we we get on a very dangerous ground when we start limiting God, saying, Well, that that sounds like you're supporting the miraculous. I don't care if you think that's what it sounds like. That's not what we're saying. And and I made this comment to you guys earlier, and I'm gonna make sure it's recorded because I think more of my brethren need to understand this. We have got to stop limiting ourselves in what we say because we're afraid of how somebody's gonna take it. It is not on us if we speak truth and they misunderstand. Now, that doesn't mean that we should have no tact, no cooth. That doesn't mean that we can go out and say whatever just because it's true.

SPEAKER_03 58:18

Yeah, because I I I will say this, and this is kind of me playing the other side, potentially the other side. We we do to a certain extent, being preachers and teachers, need to be mindful and careful of how we say things. Absolutely. Because here here's the thing. As as a preacher, I have a responsibility. Absolutely. As a Bible class teacher, I have a responsibility. As somebody who is a so-called, I I don't I I don't like to call myself in a leadership role in the church, but I guess to a certain extent. Well, you are.

SPEAKER_00 58:55

I am as somebody who's crazy buttons. He's over here with the imposter syndrome.

SPEAKER_03 59:01

Somebody who is in a leadership role of the church, I have a responsibility to not cause confusion. And so in my mind, I have to be careful when I speak about those type of things. Because I have a responsibility to not confuse people and to and to help people to understand the truth as I am able to understand the truth.

SPEAKER_00 59:25

Absolutely. But I want to make certain that people understand what I'm saying there because I I I'm I'm not saying anything different than what you are. When I make the statement we've got to stop worrying about how people are going to take things, I'm talking about that moment when I'm afraid to refer to me being called by God to be a preacher. Because that's a denominational term. You know what I mean? And I'm afraid to use the term of surrendering my life to Christ because that's a denominational term. Yeah. And and I don't use those words because I'm afraid somebody's going to misunderstand and call me a liberal. That's what I'm talking about. And so you are exactly, you're 150% right. We do have a responsibility to make certain that we are not misunderstood and that we effectively communicate the gospel, that we do not confound or confuse.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:22

Well, and that that's why we have to, when we like this subject, this subject here. This is a difficult subject. Absolutely. It's a very difficult subject. And so when we say things like, you know, did God save somebody? No, no, you've been sliding it. You know, did God save somebody in a car wreck?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:41

That's what it is, y'all. It's this, it's this arm mount for the the microphone. Let me take this thing off because I'm gonna keep hitting it. And it's gonna keep squeaking.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:52

You know, when we say you know, that God saved somebody in the car wreck, God, you know, healed that person that was sick. Can he do it?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:03

Hundred percent he can do it. He's God, he can do whatever he wants to do. I I think though that we have to be careful saying that he did do it. Absolutely. Absolutely. You have to be because you're treading in waters there that you don't know. And it goes back to what we were talking about. Saying things we cannot prove. Absolutely. And and and in the providential care of God, it's there. We know it's there. It's all throughout scripture. It is scripture, it literally is the Bible. Can I explain it? No, I can't. Can I say for certain that that when I prayed for this person to be well, that that was God providentially taking care of that person? Or as Casey said, and I know he was saying it in a sarcastic way, is it the providential care that God provided in the fact that he gave us everything on the face of the planet that we used to create medicine? He gave God He gave doctors talent, He gave nurses talent. All those things are God given.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:59

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:00

And so we have to be so very careful, and I know you're saying we we need to not be careful about saying, but at the same time what I mean by that is in regards to those brethren that we're often worried about, it's gonna call me a liberal. Yes. That's what I'm talking about. And in those cases, we just need to explain ourselves. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:18

Which is why I'm gonna go ahead and explain myself now. When we talk about, you know, things like God healed that individual, we're not saying that we know with certainty that God did that, that God healed him. We're saying God can. Right. Absolutely. God can send rain, God can heal that individual. Yeah. And you know, what we gotta what we have to get back to is the understanding that yes, this is a difficult topic. Yes, this is something that we can struggle with. But we can talk milk all day long. And 1 Corinthians 3, you look at verse 2, Paul says, I fed you with milk, not with solid food. We need to talk about milk, yes, but we also need to get to the meat, and this is a meat subject. We've got to be willing and able to discuss a difficult topic. Yeah. And maybe some of our listeners aren't ready for it. Yeah. Maybe they need the milk. Yeah. Well, there's a lot that need the meat.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:13

So really we need to we need to just close all this, but but when we do, we need to make sure that everybody understand it's crucial to understand what we're saying. Yeah. We're saying that God still works today, yes. Yes, but not through miraculous gifts, like in the New Testament. God works through providence. Yes. Romans 8.28. Yep. He works through prayer, James 5.16. He works through his word, Hebrews 4.12, but not through tongues, not through apostolic healing powers, not through direct revelation. Those things don't occur today. Guys, I really appreciate y'all just hanging out with us today. We pray that you have a wonderful day.